peter penz committed a treeview for dolphin to svn today. it really angers me to watch people piss and moan about that whole situation when 4.0 is months away and when they aren't going to be losing a damn thing since konqueror is still there and still maintained. the attitude some of these people are demonstrating is the perfect way to chase away enthusiastic new developers like peter. making kde an enjoyable place to work on code something we in the development community try pretty hard to realize; when the beneficiaries of that start sabotaging it with ill-informed whinging, it's pretty disheartening. i have no issue with constructive criticism, but i'm seeing very little of that.
in more happy news, krunner is getting prettier with transparency on the widgets, pretty buttons and the listview soon to be replaced by the "icon parade". the latter is something of an interface experiment, and i'm hopping to receive some of the artwork i need for it tomorrow. if it pans out i'll post a screenshot or three.
it's also getting more functional as the feature set comes together. matt broadstone has also got the start of a qgraphicsview based implementation for the desktop going that we'll be building the visual elements on plasma on top of, and wirr has started bringing over some of the widgets he'd ported from superkaramba to graphics view. so, bit by bit things are coming together.
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I agree with you that most of the comments are not constructive, and even I was afraid that it will make Peter as Dolphin author mentally down. But seems the opposite happens, Peter took the constructive critics and even started implementing them (treeview for example).
Many of them, IMO, are afraid that KDE's default file manager will just copy Nautilus, but I'm pretty sure the devs will copy the good things and keep the power of KDE file manager.
Anyway, the Dolphin & Konqueror dot article has generated almost 300 comments now, amazing :D
I was really sad about all the comments as well. Dolphin is definitely a step in the right direction, and as you said no one's taking Konqueror away from people who want to us it!
Thank you so much Peter and aaron.
Hey, Aaron (and Peter, if you're reading) :)
Just wanted to voice some support, given the content of this post. I was one of the people asking early questions about Konqueror's relationship to Dolphin, but this was only because I hadn't heard anything about the future direction, either way. As for copying nautilus... it does have some good features, and I'm completely for implementing the good stuff (like space-efficient windows, fast loading, remembering window positions, and emblems).
But... yeah, it's all good, and most of us are very much looking forward to KDE 4, and appreciating your hard work. Version 4 is almost certainly going to eclipse GNOME's next revision, and might even stand a chance of gaining the vast majority of Linux desktops ;)
It's great to see more news of KDE4 progress and directions coming out. If I'd seen that before, I wouldn't have even raised a question on the dot :) Keep up the good work! :)
Severe communication "mistakes" have been made. They are not true mistakes, as you will know.
a) It was announced that Dolphin should become the default file manager for KDE 4.0, long before it was ready.
This was good to gather interested people in the development of Dolphin early enough to make it possible.
But it was very bad to demote the killer application of KDE to a second class citizen, before people had used Dolphin at least once.
You overused the trust of the whole KDE community into the developers in general here. Only those that are with KDE from before 3.0 will know, that Dolphin will be great substitute, before seeing it.
b) You mentioned Gnomes Nautilus without explaining what specifically you mean about it.
So you opened up people to the idea, that KDE now somehow shares the goals of Gnome development.
Do not forget, a lot of KDE users, are former Gnome users, because they were disappointed by closed attitude developers. They may not know that KDE wouldn't Dolphin have Gnome's goals on feature removal.
You didn't clearly enough say, that Dolphin was about adding features to file browsing that previously didn't exist without removing what now exists.
Yours, Kay
Don't get disappointed and keep up the good work. I am quite sure a lot of people are watching the current process looking forward to each new feature that is implemented and getting more and more usable with the time.
I myself also was quite shocked when I read that dolphin should "replace" konqueror and was completly against it... However I must admit that I never looked at dolphin before. So I give it a chance I think it was quite nice, especially for a normal user. Everything I was missing was somekind of a treeview and I see that there is currently some work ongoing there.
Whatever people saying... I am sure you are on the right way!
Hey Aaron (and Peter) don't take it personal. The dot seems a magnet for people to come whining over every little thing. What angers me is not that they do that, but that they often don't have a clue of what they say. Troy posts an article showing screenshots of the new KSysguard, and they don't have anything better to do than to bitch about the background SVG image, whitch in actallity is a placeholder. Do they know at all what development is?
Or remember the incredible debate over the decision to remove the Konsole shortcut in Kicker per default? More than one came whining how bad it was, konsole being such a great application and how they couldn't do without it. They didn't even get that nobody was removing any application, just a shotcut for God's sake!
So don't be down at all. There will always be a lot of people who resist a change that affects the way *they* use the desktop. As long as the decision to change is before consensuated with the other KDE developers and contributors there is no problem at all. And of course *constructive* criticism should always be welcome.
So keep up the good work! I am looking forward to Dolphin in KDE4. I know for sure most of my non-developer family members would rather use Dolphin than something like Konqueror.
Miquel
Having said the above, I agree partly with Kay.
You could have handled it a bit better just by saying:
"A new dedicated file manager called Dolphin is being developed. We intend to make it the KDE4 default if it gets featurefull and stable enough".
Just this tiny change in your formulation would probably have improved things a bit. But hey, nobody can do everything 100% right all the time.
Miquel
Hi,
I also think that announcing Dolphin as default manager (in this early stage) was not-a-good-idea(tm) -- but reaction from the "users" have not been better...
I'm really looking foreward seeing Dolphin in action!
Please keep up the good work!
A big Thanks to Peter and Aaron!
Eugen
Personally I found the "outrage" on the dot a little too much. I haven't had the time to properly evaluate Dolphin (I have played a bit with the KDE 3 version) but I can say I trust the KDE developers quite a bit, so I'm sure that such a decision wasn't based on a whim, but on technical decisions.
So, keep up the good work.
Come on Aaron, we all know Konqueror development will slow down now that Dolphin is the default filemanager.
I am not event talking about Dolphin's features: it's just this decision is hurting Konqueror, which was the killer app in KDE as many have pointed.
I think we did not need a new filemanager but some more work on profiles. Look at Konqueror in KUbuntu: the simplified profile is very nice and easy to use.
> It was announced that Dolphin should
> become the default file manager for
> KDE 4.0, long before it was ready.
so you feel we should learn to be deceptive and less honest; that is very interesting. if you don't think that is what you were trying to say, i suggest you re-read what you wrote from my perspective and think about what you communicating to me. namely: it's not worth being open with the user base because too many of you are not capable of engaging in such discourse in a productive fashion.
as for "long before it was ready", software development, particularly at the scale of something like kde, starts with planning. that is, knowing where you're headed before you get there.
do you criticize the architect of a sky scraper for showing people the blueprints before the construction workers put in the foundation?
> But it was very bad to demote the
> killer application of KDE to a second
> class citizen,
konqi is not a second class citizen. it's set to not be the default, yes, but that's like saying kate is a second class citizen for the same reason, which it's not; in fact, kate is far better than kwrite .. for what it is designed for. ditto with konqi and dolphin.
> before people had used
> Dolphin at least once.
the people who make this particular set of decisions had actually used dolphin and were familiar with its design.
i understand that people freaked out because they hadn't used it (aka "fear borne of ignorance"), and that's precisely why it annoys me. if people wanted to offer clear, cogent concern based on fact and thought: great! but that's not what happened, is it?
too many people jumped to conclusions without first asking questions, followed quickly by not listening to the answers and finished off by still not trying the application itself out.
those that actually did try it out and offered feedback based on that experience have not only been acknowledged but have caused the software to be improved.
> You overused the trust of the whole
> KDE community into the developers in
> general here.
woah. hold on now. let's get something really straight and clear here: people who contribute effort to make kde happen are the ones who decide what happens.
we listen to the user base and collect as much information as possible on them because that's part of the goal of the project: to make a complete, general purpose, free software desktop.
our work benefits the user base and is often tuned to the needs of users (ironically, dolphin is a good example of this), but do not mistake that for the users having some sort of ownership over the code or design. it's a symbiotic relationship: i do not work at your behest and you are more than a consumer.
think about it.
@Pau Garcia i Quiles
> we all know Konqueror development will
> slow down now that Dolphin is the
> default filemanager.
since konqi development is actually more active now than it was in the last couple of 3.x releases, i don't know how you can arrive at that conclusion.
i do know that if you come to that conclusion, that you almost certainly have no personal knowledge of either the design or past development activity of file managers in kde.
or maybe i'm just not recognizing your name from the mailing lists. what is your knowledge of konqi development?
> I am not event talking about Dolphin's
> features: it's just this decision is
> hurting Konqueror,
injecting new blood into file management components, allowing konqueror to remain as a universal browser and not ditching it even though there's another more actively developed app sounds exactly like the opposite of what you're purporting to me.
> which was the
> killer app in KDE as many have
> pointed.
what you meant to say was, "which was the killer app in KDE for me." that's also why we're keeping it in kdebase. we haven't even moved it to another module!
with a broader perspective of the realities of our user base, you would realize that konqi is also a major handicap for a huge number of people who use kde. its blessings are also its curses, and personally (as a konqi fan!) i'd like it to be able to keep its blessings by giving those whom it doesn't work for something that does.
> Look at Konqueror in KUbuntu: the
> simplified profile is very nice and
> easy to use.
it's not just about the toolbars. in fact, they are one of the least concerns. it's about configuration complexity, sidebars, plugin based tools, browsing vs managing ... that last item is particularly important.
@the rest: thank you for you support; and really i'm just a bit player in the dolphin saga technology wise. i've done some usability research, writen a few dozen patches and done some coordination work.
peter penz, david faure, frederikh and others are working damn hard on file manager issues, both dolphin and konqi.
my concern is for them and for the state of our community. there is too much feeling of entitlement amongst some users and too little trust in the development process despite release after stellar release. it makes it difficult at times to encourage new developers because the reality of the userbase is a little off putting.
i do promise all of you, though, that dolphin and konq will rock in kde4. that's the repayment of trust that i feel the development community needs to pay.
Since Tree View is in the works, I think it would be nice to include Simon Edward's idea for showing KIO slaves within the same tree hierarchy as the root directory.
This would do away with having multiple trees like "Home" and "Network" and with the synchronization problems between the tree view and URL address.
Aaron, this thing is not about filemanagers, browsers or anything like that. It's about defaults. 99% of people stick to defaults, therefore most of the development goes to improve defaults. The moment an application loses its "default" status, less work gets done on it. Sure, maybe Konqueror will improve its browsing capabilities (and that's great for me: it's my browser of choice), but its filemanaging capabilities will lag behind.
I don't get it. People are wasting tons of time because of a cool new tool, crying, screaming, complaining ... I hear "Blasphemy! Blasphemy!" Is Konquerer their Allmighty God(tm) and there should nothing exist besides "Him"?
Use what ever you like to use! Its just that easy. Errr, perhaps TOO easy?! Besides Im a blasphemic, Im using Gnome. But you know what? Ill give KDE4 a chance if its released nevertheless. Ohmy, ohmy, So Im also a betrayer then. Are we're talking about religions or just DESKTOP ENVIROMENTS? Perhaps I should switch back to The Perfect World of Windows(c)(tm)(Patent-No: xxx) where nobody complains because Bill(c)(tm)(Patent-No: xxx) made it and Bill(c)(tm)(Patent-No: xxx) is God(c)(tm)(Patent-No: xxx)(DONTMESSWITHMECAUSEIMGOD).
Sorry, this is a bit offtopic, but Im so sick and tired of these discussions. Just wake up, take a breath of fresh air. This could probably clear your fogged minds.
@Pau: You still didn't answer aaron's questions: How can you say that less work is done when an application is not the default? Where from do you take that knowledge regarding KDE?
Also, you didn't even mention Aaron's quite good example of kwrite/kate.
And, according to your theory, applications which are the default are constantly improved and developed. But there are examples even in the KDE development where the development of a default application slowed down although it was totally default (think of kicker here).
Last but not least: your 99% rule might work for Windows world, but not for the Linux world as it is right now: most people tweak up their desktop very much and use other applications.
Sorry, but all of your arguments are either fact-less assumptions or plain wrong.
Stick to the facts and use them to test if your're right or not.
And, aaron: don't bother with these people complaining about Dolphin, they will get the idea when KDE 4 comes more into shape. Until them rely on the fact that you have enough support of the user base :)
/me goes off to trademark 'Icon Parade'
I've used Dolphin in it's earlier stages, and I can see why it may be the best choice for a variety of KDE users, from newbies to freaks. But I don't want to use it myself. So, will there be any easy way to remove it?
And as for these great news, a tree view would really improve Dolphin.
Well, I have to say that I think Dolphin has made great progress in such a short space of time (shows the all important unseen development infrastructure again), and having a file manager that was focused squarely on being a really great file manager is what KDE really needs. Konqueror is a really powerful application, and framework really, but it is extremely difficult to see what it is focused on a lot of the time.
The whole swiss army knife nature of Konqueror has, I'm sure, stopped the web browser part of Konqueror from becoming a really, really great web browser because there are file management options and other features littered through it. Unfortunately, lessons just have to be learned with Konqueror and we just have to accept that file management, web browsing and other forms of browsing are just clearly too different in terms of their use cases. You can see how that has unfolded.
Besides, even if Konqueror wasn't the default file manager anymore then it would still be around. Konqueror has always been more than just an application, and is a whole framework full of reusable components.
There's a few things that I don't think are quite right in KDE today and that disappointingly hurts it a lot more than they should, but such is life. I think there are good reasons to suggest that Dolphin, and perhaps more importantly what Dolphin frees up, are all heading in the right direction for 4.
@robert: " /me goes off to trademark 'Icon Parade'"
lol! damn you, mr bond! *shakes fist at sky*
@sam: "will there be any easy way to remove it?"
of course. you can already set your prefered file manager in kde3, actually, by defining what your default file manager is in the "default applications" control panel. and if you don't like dolphin, just remove the package/binary from disk and voila... all the components will still be there in the share libraries for konq, etc to use.
@segendum: "I have to say that I think Dolphin has made great progress in such a short space of time "
agreed =)
"lessons just have to be learned with Konqueror and we just have to accept that"
i feel you may be swinging the other way here a bit too much, e.g. that konqueror is a bad idea, period. it's not. it's just not a good idea for everyone.
The slight problems I have with the dolphin versus konqueror as default file manager issue are:
- who decided which would be default
- and on what basis
I'm not suggesting that the answers to either of the above would suggest that dolphin shouldn't be default, I just don't think these have been articulated clearly - the latter needs more than 'I think..' from anyone, if there has been usability studies then publish them. For the former, I don't have a clue who decided. It just hasn't been transparent, not deliberately obscured, but I think a mechanism is needed to decide things like this that is clear and understood (also relevant to the okular/ligature, kaffeine/kmplayer/codeine, khtml/webkit-qt which is to be default? debates that are likely to surface in future).
From my personal point of view, I don't know what my preference will be, but I'll certainly play with dolphin when kde 4.0 is out, if not before, and decide on that basis.
Also - Aaron, Peter - I wouldn't worry to much about those comments. People rarely bother to leave comments to say they're content or not bothered so the comments are naturally biased towards the extremes.
Aaroon & co., I am have tried dolphin for a while and I can see how this will help many users. It makes a lot of sense to set this as the default file manager. Those who think it may have a too simple interface for them to get their work done will/should have the ability to change the setting in the control center. If they cannot or do not even know about this (for whatever reason), probably they are the kind for whom dolphin will be better any way.
Regarding the problem of uninformed criticism: This represents only a minority. The problem is that users who think before they comment will probably install dolphin first, read in blogs or mailing lists about its development goals and then (maybe) come back to your blog and post. But most likely, they will not even post but just wait for how things develop. The minority of ignorants that cry out without knowing what they are talking about, however, are those whose 'opinion' you have to read. I can see how you are afraid that it may discourage future (or even present) developers. :/ I guess that is how it is.
Keep up the awesome work!
whine screenshots? /whine
Thanks for the information. You busted a few misconceptions that I had.
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The post above gave me a great idea. Could you include a "Want knew all news??" button in Dolphin?
I don't know if you're the right guy to tell this to but you're the only one linked on the dolphin homepage so...
THANKYOU! thankyou thankyou thankyou THANKYOU for producing dolphin. It's just made my life a whole lot easier. Konqueror was one of the main reasons for me not liking linux as much as I could, what with it forgetting directory view settings and looking far too messy for my liking. At last I don't have to go back to windows to have one folder contents sorted by date, and another by name, and have the damn thing remember that when I open it again.
And a direct link to open a folder in root! Ahhh I'm in heaven :oD
So keep up the good work, even if I think it's near perfect already :o)
Thank you for treeview-feature! With treeview-feature and a few GUI-Bugs fixed (for example: if you resize the dolphin window the detail-info on the bottom gets very large in height, it should use "..." instead). I will replace konqueror with dolphin-filemanager. I hope (or allready implemented?) there will be the possibility to switch on an adressbar.
"the attitude some of these people are demonstrating is the perfect way to chase away enthusiastic new developers like peter. making kde an enjoyable place to work on code something we in the development community try pretty hard to realize"
Actually, we already have a perfect way to chase away new developers, it is the normal KDE way of doing things.
This normal way of doing things tends to encourage the comments that are seen on the dot.
When developers don't make any distinction between real criticism and personal insults, it appears that posters don't either.
Probably the most likely thing to chase away new developers is the: 'if you don't like my app then go write your own' attitude. Perhaps all of the developers tuned away by this attitude should get together and fork KDE.
User feedback is valuable. We (meaning AJS) should not be angered by it and should not say pejorative things about it. Most important, we should not simply ignore it either.
KDE would be a much better place to work if developers could argue about issues without resorting to personal attacks and other fallacious arguments.
I only hope that it will be possible to de-activate Dolphin.
Sorry, bu really I don't see any reason for it.
mcz
Thankyou so much for making an application like Dolphin. It shows that KDE is striding towards a more usable desktop. I don't understand why people are still so critical of it - first of all, the design philosophy represents a more mature approach to application design (I would love to see more KDE apps take the interface of Dolphin into account - where there are big, icon-based toolbars) which are simple and functional to use. It's going to make someone who uses Gnome, like me, switch over to KDE. That in itself is an indication that KDE has burgeoning appeal to a vast audience, and isn't simply catered to the audience that believes in the same design without any change for the better. Kudos to KDE devs!
Tried it, it sucks! Why would anyone think Dolphin is a step in the right direction? Copying Finder and Nautilus possibly two of the worst file managers in existence is stupid.
@anonymous-the-latter: "Tried it, it sucks! Why would anyone think Dolphin is a step in the right direction? Copying Finder and Nautilus possibly two of the worst file managers in existence is stupid."
it's hardly copying those apps (though that may be where _you_ are familiar with some of the look decisions from), and you forgot the most important part of your message: in my opinion.
many people do like dolphin. for those of us who prefer something else, such as yourself, there is still konqueror right where it always was.
it's great to be able to offer something to people without taking something away from someone else, isn't it?
.... there is still konqueror right where it always was....
Except it is now in KDE 4.0.x missing many things, treeview being the most important to me, now that the file management is handled by the dolphin bits. Where is the treeview that you are talking about in this post? I am using KDE 4.0.3 and I can't find it. I tried to use dolphin but it is not useful in any way.
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