Personally, what I get out of it is a draining of motivation and hope. It's not because these posts are negative, though. It's because they tend to have few hard facts in them, almost never offer concrete solutions and rarely sound like the author wants to be part of the solution. Which means we get left with, well, negativity and not much else. That sucks. What's worse: I don't think that's at all what is intended.
The KDE community historically has had a tendency towards pessimism. We wrap it in terms like "realism", "pragmatism" and what not, but honestly .. our community is moderately conservative and really good at identifying what's lacking, often more so than our ability to identify opportunities and potential. It's a very typical engineering-and-maths type thing to do. It's also rather easy to fall into a "being the clever critic is cool" mode, and when that's all we have to go on, our efforts suffer.
So I'd like to propose a solution, one that I'm going to do my best to follow as well. (And please remind me if I don't. :) When planning to write a critical or negative piece, something we all do from time to time and often with good reason, let's try to:
- Check our facts: do some research and bounce our thoughts off the people involved directly first. It may turn out we don't have all the facts or know all the details at play. Then we can share an accurate viewpoint versus spread misconceptions.
- Lead with facts: start from a factual basis and follow on with our opinions on the matter. There's a demonstrated tendency to leave out the facts we do know or leave them as little better than footnotes.
- Include the positives: if there are positive points as well, let's note them. It helps preserve balance and can help others discern possible motivations for the decisions thus far.
- Propose plausible solutions: if we are going to spend the time cataloging challenges, let's also spend the time and effort to catalog solutions. This is part of being constructive.
- Be prepared to support those solutions: armchair coaches are a dime a dozen and very few of us have the necessary skill and background to play the role of a professional critic: someone who is deeply knowledgeable about but not a direct participant in the field. So if we talk about a problem and propose a solution, remember that we are driven by doing more than talking. If we can't strike out and breath life into the solution ourselves, be the first to support those who can. This moves us from being disruptive because of problems to supportive of solutions.
Personally, I feel that if some of the above had been applied to each of the recent "negative" entires, they'd feel a lot more motivational, constructive and accurate. As a result, I'd expect to see more people charging into the solutions. If we really want to see something improve we need to offer a realistic assessment, a possible starting point and some inspiration so others can find their legs.

32 comments:
+1.
this stuff is hard... but important.
also, getting a different perspective on the problem (from other people or from just stepping back and asking yourself rational questions) can often show that it's not half as bad as you thought it was.
+1
Excellently said! :)
whether we like it or not, the rewrite of kde3-kde4 was necessary. the long term benefits will eventually drown out the sea of complaints arising from an admittedly painful transition.
my hope is that we can build and use this foundation to get where users want us to be. my big fear is that 3 years from now, when everything is 99% from perfection, somebody decides to rewrite it in python or something.
as a developer myself, I would love to get involved, but c++ is not my ballgame. I guess I could write qt apps using the bindings available so fair point.
a few years ago when alsa/oss etc were having limited driver support and battling to be usable, we didn't predict that many years later, we still wouldn't have 100% reliable sound. We certainly didn't expect to be lagging behind Mac or Windows, even.
I do think its arrogant *NOT* to see that the current state of the linux desktop is not what we had envisioned. The fact that there are valid reasons for this current state of affairs doesn't change the reality.
Regarding contributing feedback and solutions, I have found that in KDE's case, my expectations are being managed appropriately. Every feature I've wanted in Amarok has been clearly communicated in terms of how far it is and when it will land or what the developer's priority is and its a perfect arrangement. The issues are largely due to lower level stuff like video card, audio, etc. Many of us can give no useful feedback other than my screen is black or my sound is stuttering or non-existent. Its actually very hard in certain projects to give good feedback.
Regarding positive feedback, I do think the community can be largely ungrateful and we do take your time and effort for granted, but I'm sure when we get to see you at events or engage in an email exchange, most of use will have the decency to walk over and say "Big Thanks".
In any event, let me stand up and put it on record.
I am grateful to guys like yourself, the companies who allow you / others to work on these projects (not just kde). I am even more grateful of the extra time that is put in at night and weekends when you put your other interests on hold to help a user or fix a bug.
I am glad that there are people out there who care enough about our free software that they will improve it endlessly, even admitting when it needs to be pruned and reshaped to enable it to grow.
I am grateful that I can type this in Firefox on KDE on openSUSE knowing I can walk away, drink coffee, compose my thoughts, come back and know that the everything is rock-solid stable and working beautifully.
And should you ever visit Cape Town, I'll come over and thank you in person and buy you a beer or whatever.
Apologies for long comment.
The last planet post about "Linux sucks and have no solution" really pissed me off, don't tell me why but I was kind of stuck for 5minutes without think on anything._. and I really DO NO LIKE THAT u.U
Everybody knows that gnu/linux lacks a lot of things, but what we really ignore as gnu/linux users is that other platforms have lacks too.
So come on, we have to do well our part of the job ("We are part of the solution, remember?") and leave the other projects grow up an mature. Everything is going to be sorted eventually.
[quote]The last planet post about "Linux sucks and have no solution" really pissed me off[/quote]
Not only you friend. It seems person who write such bull is just ignorant and prefer doing things in OS X way. Personally I prefer Linux/KDE way. He attacked Linux, because of some problem with skype which is just proprietary crap and if it doesn't work as expected it's not Linux fault. Part about pulse audio seems to be taken from random Internet forum and what is interesting he (Jason Kasper "vanRijn" who is a KDE developer, right?) writes about Ubuntu not about Kubuntu which is pulse audio free. He also forget to mention if there's a skype package for (K)ubuntu it's just enough to click on it and it will install automatically. It's just sad and probably many Linux users who read his bull are disappointed, because if they use Linux they must prefer its way (which is IMHO far better and simpler) then OS X way.
Great post Aaron, regards!
Heads up guys!
The situation isn't that bad.
All of my KDE 4.3 installations are rock solid. I do all my pim stuff in kontact, my finances in kmymoney, my everyday work on plasma/dolphin/kde-workspace.
So I really trust all of the components.
My girlfriend is using KDE 4.3 too and is also very satisfied with it.
And she's no developer like me.
There are problems I know and it would be deadly to ignore them.
But these problems do also exist on other platforms.
I often have to fix computers of friends or in office.
And hell I can tell you: We are really happy with our desktops.
In most cases the only solution is to reinstall windows because app X just messed up the whole system.
And the shiny OSX: The situation here is better but if i record in studio (musician) I see osx crashing as any other os.
Every dev or group is confronted with this situation of bugs and negative feedback.
But as long as the software sells there is a proove that you're basicly doing things right.
We have no such benefits :-(
But this misleads to a feeling where a lot of things seems to be bad or not done right.
And thats not the truth.
KDE 4 is a huge step forward and I love it. And I'm sure the most others feel the same.
@pawel
It seems we both interpreted *that* post differently. Let me try and explain how I saw it.
For many years I have been bashing Windows & OSX, both the software and the people who choose to use it. I have stood there and criticised it and claimed superiority. I do mean, YEARS!
Anyway, I got to try OSX and was shocked. It was usable, stable, pretty, had some decent apps and most importantly, had an impressive development platform with fantastic documentation and a standardised set of libraries.
Sure there were usability issues and it cost a lot of money to get it equivalent to linux, but that said, its not as broken as windows.
When I'd had enough of it, I came back to my beloved kde4 and looked at it differently. I realised that it could be better and I wished that we were further along the road towards perfection.
What's wrong with mentioning that? I saw no reason to attack the poster or chase him to OSX. What's the point of attacking one another?
Server Linux is damn close to perfection & desktop linux is on its way. You'd be crazy to ignore the flaws or criticism.
Its a source of endless frustration for me that my wife refuses to leave OSX for linux. Should I treat her the same way? She has an iphone, she prefers itunes. Its the best platform for her at the moment.
Other people will differ in views on the state of the linux desktop, so what?
I don't mean to single you out, so please don't take it personally.
If we are going offtopic, I'd be happy to debate it further on an alternative channel.
@istoff
If we drill into details OS X is just a mess (from programing side) :) However, it's another story. My point is just person who wrote such things wasn't fair. I bet many Linux users won't even touch OS X (me included), because we prefer another way of doing things. That's all. I also used OS X, but I hate it. I prefer Windows which I use next to Linux. He talked about taste not about real advantages. I have different taste :>
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I think some of you commenters should go back and very carefully reread Aaron's post up there. Especially the five points he proposed.
+ 1
Great post, Aaron.
@pawel: He used Kubuntu (read his comments).
Anyways, I really don't mind such criticism, because I honestly believe in you guys and in the direction the Linux desktop is heading. The brokeness we see is mostly based on commerial vendors neglecting Linux or having the wrong strategy, but that is changing fast.
SkypeUI will be open source, Flash will be tuned, more hardware vendors support Linux than ever before.
And a lot of very necessary transitions are getting stable (realtime, BtrFS, Gallium, KMS, Pulseaudio, Phonon, Kinetic, QML, KOffice, Amarok, KDE4 is getting KDE3 feature complete.)
So we have a great future ahead of us, the only thing that can delay us is iPos/iPhone support. That is why I wouldn't support Apple. Never.
@Tom
Thanks for pointing this :)
I'm confused now, if he used Kubuntu why he mentioned pulse audio? Kubuntu doesn't use this.
P.S. When I installed Karmic I didn't have sound in SOME apps, but... it was just because some channel was muted :D Little annoying, but rather not big problem.
He quite possibly wasn't using Kubuntu.
PlanetKDE is the aggregation of the bunch of KDE developers personal blogs. Some of these aren't about KDE.
KDE isn't the Linux desktop. I work with several KDE developers that don't run Linux on any of their machines.
The post by Jason was complaining about the evolution of the Linux desktop over his 10 years experience compared to Windows or OSX.
I think we need to be careful about taking things as criticism of KDE or our pet project just because they are on Planet KDE.
I think the intelligent thing to do is to look at what is being brought up without getting overly defensive. This shouldn't be a pissing war.
I move between MacOS, Windows and Linux semi regularly depending on what my job requires, I use KDE at home because it best suits my needs and it is one of the few things areas of my life where I don't have to depend on big faceless corporations (that last reason is purely emotive).
Since the return of Steve Jobs Apple has done a really good job of realising what it's strengths are and playing to those strengths. It produces a very polished straight forward to use system that can be generally be counted on to have less hardware bugs than anything else. It is not perfect but it does have support from key proprietary software companies that we can only dream of under Linux at the moment.
Windows doesn't suck as much as it used to either.
There are a lot of things in KDE that work great... and there are a lot of things that could be better, things that Apple and Microsoft do do better. That doesn't necessarily mean that KDE should ape Apple or Microsoft but there should be an awareness of the designs being used what works about them, what doesn't and how KDE could be improved (in the KDE way)
@Mike Artur
[QUOTE]Of course I installed Kubuntu. =:) In this particular case, it’s not a Kubuntu/Ubuntu problem. It’s about more than one thing (video layer, sound layer, kernel layer) being broken.[/QUOTE]
It seems he has. And then he says:
[QUOTE]PulseAudio? Really? I’m so glad it’s the new hotness and is technically awesome. Your new hotness just broke an app I absolutely have to rely on. Guess how much I give a crap about your new hotness now, hm?[/QUOTE]
Wtf? Kubuntu doesn't use pulse audio. He sounds like troll and blame Linux, because skype is broken and it's not Linux fault.
I'm sure there are many things which can be improved, but sorry, he attacks wrong side there. He rather should say: those third party apps make me sick etc. or my problems aren't related to pulse audio, but it deserves to be blamed, because I don't know this skype isn't well made for Linux.
1) I direct you to Aarons first point -- Check your facts -- my copy of kubuntu has pulse-audio installed and a brief survey of the web seems to indicate that it is there in the default install. The difference with Kubuntu is that I can remove it without too much in the way of side effects.
@Pawel:
Give me the respect of spelling my name correctly if you are going to use it please.
He's not a troll. He's a KDE developer and he develops on Linux. Skype being broken is (at least partly) Linux's fault. It's hard to distribute a binary program on Linux. Have you worked for a commercial company where you've had to do that and support it? We both have and we know it's hard and it's not just the fault of Skype here.
It doesn't really matter to me whose fault it is, Skype doesn't work properly and consistently on Linux. I've tried a bunch of different solutions for videoconferencing and none of them work properly on Linux so I use OSX to do so. This applies to a bunch of other programs I need to do my job too.
I'm sure you can end up running with PulseAudio on Kubuntu, they use the same packages after all.
@Mike Arthur
No problem, sorry.
[QUOTE]He's not a troll. He's a KDE developer and he develops on Linux. Skype being broken is (at least partly) Linux's fault. It's hard to distribute a binary program on Linux. Have you worked for a commercial company where you've had to do that and support it? We both have and we know it's hard and it's not just the fault of Skype here.[/QUOTE]
I have my own brain and in my feeling he's a troll or he's an ignorant. I don't care what he does till he writes bull. Btw. what are you talking about? I asked why does he blame pulse audio if Kubuntu doesn't use pulse audio?! I just installed World of Goo and it works perfectly out of the box (one click on the package and it's installed). Everything works fine. It's not hard to distribute binary programs under Linux. Just follow LSB and don't care if some distro doesn't keep its standards. However, usually third party members provide packages for many (not only LSB) distros. Skype provides such packages, so it's enough to click on it (you don't have to drag it anywhere...). Don't put your thoughts into my brain. I think it's quite easy to provide such packages.
[QUOTE]It doesn't really matter to me whose fault it is, Skype doesn't work properly and consistently on Linux. I've tried a bunch of different solutions for videoconferencing and none of them work properly on Linux so I use OSX to do so. This applies to a bunch of other programs I need to do my job too.[/QUOTE]
If it doesn't matter I can write a blog about crappy OS X which have problems in running KDE or some other app which have problems on it. If it's Skype fault blame skype and do not spread FUD about Linux. If your intention is to write such bull we don't have anything to talk about.
[QUOTE]
I'm sure you can end up running with PulseAudio on Kubuntu, they use the same packages after all.[/QUOTE]
And what are you talking about this time? Of course I can run pulse audio, but I'm talking about something else. However, it seems you have no idea what I'm talking about.
@Danni Coy
Get the facts, there's a dummy package installed... and it's under your sound card in multimedia settings and its process it's not running. Stop talking bull please.
Great post, Aaron! Thank you.
When you've done it yourself for a binary package with multiple library dependencies and multiple distros I'll listen to you. Also, you can't just ignore all distros that aren't 100% LSB compliant, people use them.
Feel free to write a post about how KDE sucks because it doesn't run on OSX. I wouldn't get upset and call you a troll when you do so, I'll try and make it better (check the commit fixes I've made on fixing KDE on OSX).
You seem to like insulting other people and accusing them of "talking bull". Perhaps you can point to some of your successful projects and experience and let us know why we should listen to you and ignore our own experiences.
Both I and Jason commit to KDE. Neither of us as much as we'd like but we do so. We both run Linux machines and work on Linux. Our opinions are informed, perhaps you should stop insulting people.
[QUOTE]When you've done it yourself for a binary package with multiple library dependencies and multiple distros I'll listen to you. Also, you can't just ignore all distros that aren't 100% LSB compliant, people use them.[/QUOTE]
I already answered this. There's a skype package ready to download and "click and install", so what problem you have?
[QUOTE]Feel free to write a post about how KDE sucks because it doesn't run on OSX. I wouldn't get upset and call you a troll when you do so, I'll try and make it better (check the commit fixes I've made on fixing KDE on OSX).[/QUOTE]
But you said it doesn't matter which fault is this, so I can consider it's OS X fault, because it doesn't support KDE. I'm not interested in you efforts in bringing OS X to KDE (following your logic).
[QUOTE]You seem to like insulting other people and accusing them of "talking bull". Perhaps you can point to some of your successful projects and experience and let us know why we should listen to you and ignore our own experiences.[/QUOTE]
Such things you can sold your customers. I already pointed what's bull in his article.
[QUOTE]Our opinions are informed, perhaps you should stop insulting people.[/QUOTE]
First, stop writing bull. You failed to answer simple question, how it's possible that Pulse Audio caused skype to not run on Kubuntu?
He doesn't say Skype's issues are due to PulseAudio. I didn't say it's Linux's fault, the kernel is great. I said desktop Linux which is a far wider set of applications.
Again you've failed to point to any work you actually do other than talk. I conclude therefore that you don't have any to show your expertise. This conversation is going nowhere, your insulting tone has just got boring.
Goodbye.
Hi Aaron,
As a Gentoo-stable user, I've just switched from KDE3 to KDE4 (KDE 4 wasn't stabilized before).
And if you need positive feedback, let me tell you I love it.
I unfortunatelly had to switch off Nepomuk because my PC is old and that feature was eating as much memory as the whole other kde desktop features!
Desktop effects are really cool and smooth(my graphic card is more powerful than the rest of my PC, a GForce 7600 GT).
Too bad I don't find any webbrowser that makes me really happy.
Konqueror tends to eat a lot of memory while using tabs but I use it when I don't need flash.
I don't like Firefox so much.
Maybe I'll try Opera.
Oh, just a detail : kio_thumbnail really tends to block removable devices, eat lot of cpu and memory... and I didn't find how to deactivate it in Dolphin.
I'm even happy with Dolphin, while I was always claiming I won't change my so beloved Konqueror.
Of course, some things are still missing :
- a cool DVD player... like Kaffeine in KDE3.
- a cool FTP client (ok, Filezilla, but Qt preferred)... I was using KFtpGrabber.
... and certainly some more. But I can't do it by myself so I can hardly criticize the cool stuff I get thanks to free software! :)
@Mike Arthur: this is exactly the problem with delivering criticism the way it was delivered in that blog entry. the message gets completely lost and people start squabbling over whether the guy is a troll (and let's be honest, the tone of that blog entry is pretty close to sounding like one) or if pulseaudio is actually installed, etc, etc.
do we need to examine things? yep. do we need to keep in mind other platforms, etc, etc, etc, etc? sure.
but it's all going to be lost on people until people like Jason can start communicating the issues clearly and start laying down solutions for us to work towards.
anything else makes people quite understandably uncomfortable or even defensive.
sometimes working with F/OSS, and KDE in particular, is like being in one a family who means well but is highly dysfunctional when it comes to communication. it's really, really trying.
@Temet: "dkio_thumbnail really tends to block removable devices, eat lot of cpu and memory... and I didn't find how to deactivate it in Dolphin."
to turn them all off: View -> Preview
to tweak them a bit, there's a page in the config dialog.
[QUOTE]Again you've failed to point to any work you actually do other than talk. I conclude therefore that you don't have any to show your expertise. This conversation is going nowhere, your insulting tone has just got boring.[/QUOTE]
I don't feel I have to tell you a thing, because it's really lame to base on some 'titles' or expertises in this case, while we're not even talking about technical things (you expect I'll tell you something to let you attack this via blog?). What is boring is you justifying someone who wasn't fair and who hit this project in the back.
However I can't say better what I feel than Aaron said. Thank you for your great efforts, so we can have full feature and wonderfully looking desktop.
Regards!
@Pawel: "someone who wasn't fair and who hit this project in the back."
what's unfortunate is that i don't think he meant to, even though it certainly came across that way to many who read it. (and it wasn't the only blog entry i've read in the last while that had a similar effect.) and so the really useful message got lost and we are no closer to a solution.
i think we wall want the same set of results, but we regularly lose opportunities to get closer to those goals because we don't communicate our needs, challenges and solutions very well.
in any case, it'd be great if the argument here could stop. it's not getting anyone anywhere. if we want to discuss the issues, let's do so in a way that will get us to solution:
* identify the challenge(s) clearly
* research their causes and attributes
* suggestion solutions and see if there's anything like consensus to be had
* implement a solution
@istoff: "my big fear is that 3 years from now, when everything is 99% from perfection, somebody decides to rewrite it in python or something."
almost forgot to reply to this one.
our intention with KDE 4 has been to ensure that we don't need to do anything like this for a long, long time. the goal is to last significantly longer than KDE2+KDE3.
what i can see happening is a binary incompatible release at some point in the coming years where we clean up some of the new library interfaces, much as we did from KDE 2.2 -> KDE 3.0, but nothing disruptive like the KDE 2.0 or KDE 4.0 cycles.
Quick question. Not sure if there's a quick answer.
Is there a place/ forum where the roadmap of linux is discussed and planned independently of distro or desktop?
Should we have a global roadmap / vision that's looks at linux desktop as a whole?
Is portland project still active / relevant?
Are there other initiatives that I am missing?
If there was, my guess it would be nice to register solutions & ideas as far upstream as possible.
As a user it seems that downstream projects are at the mercy of bigger projects like X or the kernel itself or is their more shared vision happening behind the scenes?
finally. I welcomed the discussion of the last few days as a wake-up call and a way for users to vent. Of course it causes friction and raised voices, but ultimately, I enjoyed the dialogue. Perhaps awareness of differing opinions allows us all to grow.
I didn't find it troll-like at all, but maybe I'm just too thick-skinned to be easily offended.
Just another quick reminder of the "awesome-nossity" of kde4 on linux. I map "present all windows" to top-right desktop corner. sometimes, after a few days, I look for a forgotten window and float the mouse up there and find i have > 20 windows open, stopped video players, multiple forgotten terminals and remote sessions. Yet my machine feels responsive and agile. My machine has been up for < 3 hours now and I have 16 windows open ;) including 1 running virtual machine.
and to think I started this post with "quick question" *sigh*
@istoff: "Is there a place/ forum where the roadmap of linux is discussed and planned independently of distro or desktop?"
not that i know of. there's freedesktop.org but it hardly manages to straddle KDE and GNOME let alone everything else of interest here.
"Should we have a global roadmap / vision that's looks at linux desktop as a whole?"
i don't know if a single roadmap or vision would work, but the workflows between upstreams and distributions needs some changes imho (particularly in how distributions add disruptive software releases like pulseaudio or kde 4.0 to the stack) and it would be highly useful to have much better commuication between relevant projects. in particular, projects that have other projects that rely on them (e.g. HAL turning into DeviceKit recently is a great example of this) really ought to spend more time considering their 3rd party developers and add that to their roadmap thinking.
right now we have too many projects that rely on each other making decisions without talking to each other while in the process of making those decisions.
"Is portland project still active / relevant?"
active, yes, but it never even got close to achieving the scope it should have. we (KDE) really tried to get it moving and put in a lot of effort there, but there was very little recognition of its importance, that despite there are many software products actually shipping with and relying on the xdg-utils that came of it.
"Are there other initiatives that I am missing?"
other than freedesktop.org, which also has its issues, not really.
the distribution scene is too balkanized to make any of the individual distros a useful rallying point, either.
not an easy challenge to solve.
Thank you Aaron, for once again being the voice of reason, I love it that KDE's leadership is in such capable hands.
Just to clarify the subject of pulseaudio with some facts.
I use ArchLinux+KDE4 exclusively, and have through KDE4 converted my whole family to Kubuntu as well, and I can tell you that, while KDE4's ecossystem totally rocks, once you start (which inevitably you start doing) installing non-KDE software, and especially gnome-specific ones, inevitably you're going to end up with pulseaudio not only being installed as dependency but also running and wreacking havoc of the sound system, sometimes ending up muting all sound, period, until you kill it.
And this is not exclusive to Kubuntu, but to independent apps like skype that recently became dependent on pulseaudio, so me that am using a desktop agnostic distro (ArchLinux) end up having to kill pulseaudio a few times a week as well.
If only everyone was has thoughtfull has KDE (/Phonon) developers :P
Anyway the bright side is that even if we can't get rid of pulseaudio at least we can be sure that there will come the day which it will become all it was intended to be with the big-bugs ironed-out.
And even with this and other quirks, my whole family keeps using Linux happily, for they remember a time when they used Windows and the day-to-day issues where innevitable, plus not having all the goodness that freedom brings and allways on the back of your mind fear for your bits' safety with all the exposed windows holes.
I did not know that the plasma team were also trying their hand at disease control? :-)
Probably negativity can be considered a disease?
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